Ben Kaplan  

Evelyn Krasnow, CMO of fernish Welcome to Top CMO. And what I like about especially about how you think about marketing Fernish, is this notion of you are relevant to your target audience at these moments of transition, that you’re a direct to consumer, you know, premium Furniture Rental service that’s has a lot more flexibility, a lot more available inventory, trying to solve traditional problems and Furniture Rental. But because you are relevant when people have transitions, you specifically tried to market around those use cases in those transitions. So we’d love to hear more about how you think about that?

Evelyn Krasnow  

Thank you so much for having me. And thanks for explaining so much about our business, I think one of the things about moving is it’s super stressful, you’re packing up boxes, there’s memories, you’re lugging big, heavy things. And the concept of having to move without even lifting a finger can be exhausting. So for Fernish, what we’re trying to do is find people at this point where they’re already maybe a bit stressed, um, they might be very excited. But getting them to think differently about how they’re going to go through this process. And that’s, you know, that’s kind of a difficult thing to do. Because furniture is a pretty considered purchase. And moving is something which is often not very spontaneous, although that’s changed a bit over the past couple of years. So finding people at the right time, telling a story that’s compelling, and then really driving home. A very different way to think about outfitting your home. People are used to buying and putting things in a truck and then moving it from place to place and we’re really saying, forget about all of that. Go online, find the things that you might like for your home, a chair, a dresser, whatever it is a bed, and then we’ll deliver it for you. We’ll assemble it for you. And you don’t need to lift a finger. So it’s a really great service, but it’s not a part of the way most people think about their move.

Ben Kaplan  

Well And so here’s three three use cases that I know you think about in your marketing. So one is you just broke up with someone well, that’s not fun. Now you got to deal with all the logistical challenges that come through that particularly if you were living together to your newly engaged so first use case you’re kind of pulling things apart now you’re trying to put things in some kind of order and and you know, there’s like the I laugh a lot but it’s like the clean person the dirty person the organized versus the unorganized, the, I think the classic scene in when When Harry Met Sally if you met if you remember that movie with like the waggon wheel coffee table. She doesn’t want right like he’s She’s like, she’s like, if we ever if we ever split up, I never want that wacky coffee table. You know, so there’s that third one that you just get a new job. It’s an exciting time you’re traveling, you’re going to a new city, you’re in a new place, it’s a new opportunity. You’re hopeful. Maybe you don’t want to focus on that. So what do you think about that? How does that practically affect your messaging? If people come, you know, to your website or a landing page or see some type of material? Or if they’re engaged in a campaign? How do you sort of message these moments?

Evelyn Krasnow  

Yeah, that’s a really good question. And I think that is such a quintessential scene of like, not in my house, I do not want that. But I, you know, I think one of the things that we found, we partner a lot with influencers. And for us with influencers, we work really hard to find people who are going through that we’ve had people who are just mid breakup, where it’s like, I need, you know, I have a month to find a new place. And I don’t want to see anything of his ever again, which I can completely appreciate and identify with. And I think there is to that point, there is a lot of kind of stress and literal and physical baggage with it. And there’s also a lot of expense. So I think, you know, for us, we’re starting, you know, with payments as little as you know, just $140 a month, so it’s not that much. So you can have these more bite sized moments. And for us, we really, if we’re just talking about the furniture, you’re not really getting it. So for us with these influencer engagements, we actually need to show the truck coming that we have our own warehouse and delivery teams, and we show the people coming in in the Fernish shirts, setting things up assembling them for you. So the stress and the heaviness of what you’re going through, at least won’t be something that you have to do with moving all of your things. 

Ben Kaplan  

And so what you’re saying is like some of the value proposition actually isn’t just the furniture, it’s done, you’re sitting on your couch, even if you got a cold beverage in your hand, if done. No, that’s part of it. But it’s actually the journey in getting there you need to show, that is, I think you’re saying heightened by these moments, where you can make a huge difference, because it’s a moment of sort of great change for someone that you can come in and leverage.

Evelyn Krasnow  

Exactly. And I think that’s a service that most people see as separate. Whether it is Hey, my friend with a truck, and yeah, I’ll get you a six pack of beer, if you can help me move XYZ, I definitely did that back in the day. Or you’re imagining ordering something from a store and these individual items that are then coming to you at different times, and scheduling all of these different deliveries, this is really this one stop service, where you’re getting everything you need, and you’re getting it all delivered and assembled for you on a day that you’re really picking that works for you. But that service piece and really telling that story. It only resonates if you’re actually going through it. I mean, if we take the maybe a better example, you just got a new job or you know, or you’re just, you know, partnering up with someone for the first time, then there’s I think all of that excitement happening in this kind of newness to this place in this location. And still, I think there’s a lot of uncertainty. And knowing that you can pick what you want pick the day, there’s just a lot more control over something which may actually end up being uncontrollable, if it’s let’s say a gig that you’re getting for six months, cool. Get everything from us. And after six months, you can decide you want to buy some of the items or will pick them up and you never have to see him again. We’ll refurbish it and bring it on to the next person who wants them.

Ben Kaplan  

So how does that work? In terms of the mechanics of influencer marketing? Do you do it in house? Do you have an outside agency that you use? Do you just gotta vet a tonne of influencers? And you know, just ask the question like, do you think your boyfriend or girlfriend is an idiot? If so, we have a campaign for you. How do you find those people?

Evelyn Krasnow  

You know, it’s really funny. Sometimes people will proactively say it. I mean, what’s nice is we have a lot of people who are kind of very happily newly coupled but we also have people who are in the throes of a breakup. And I think it does feel really nice to be able to come to their rescue. We just did a really nice engagement with a rather large influencer Justin Baldoni and he had an uncle who was moving for health reasons and just moving into a home and just wasn’t going to be in a position physically or mentally. To Fernish your home the family wasn’t so that was a case where you could sort of surprise someone and say, Hey, you’re moving in, you don’t have to lift a finger, everything is done for you. And I think when you have this kind of authentic story of helping people out in, in a real time, it it of needed it resonates much more meaningfully, we do have people who reach out to us because, you know, they candidly, they’re influencers and they want new things, which is an amazing part of being an influencer, you can get a lot of it and look great, having all of those things, and it’s definitely an aspiration for everyone. But if they don’t have a real story to tell, then the use case just isn’t there. Like you can definitely just get a single item or a room. And there are moments where we’ll do something like a refresh. But most of the cases, if someone’s moving to a new city, they have some kind of a change of life, or relationship status, that that that makes us a very, very compelling and helpful addition to that experience,

Ben Kaplan  

where it almost sounds like, like the TV show, like Extreme Home Makeover, tradition, right, where it’s not so much that the house was just there, but it’s like all the inputs to get to that makes the house like the payoff. And if you want to have the payoff of this, you have to sort of see the journey to get there. Because that encapsulates some of the value and it makes it sort of special.

Evelyn Krasnow  

Is it the back story? Yeah, it’s exactly what you said. It’s that backstory. Yeah.

Ben Kaplan  

And then how does that trend? Do you notice when you tell these stories, you give more of the context for it? Do you notice a difference in sales leads conversion, like hard business metrics? Do you just see it perform differently?

Evelyn Krasnow  

I mean, of course, traffic, of course, the more meaningful the story, the higher the engagement. Fortunately, there are a lot of people when there’s no one. We just did one last week where people were like, kind of newly living together, and the boyfriend made a special appearance. And that was really nice. So I think people also want to share in the joy of you finding someone and I think when you see engagement, we do sometimes use promo codes, and we can track some sales that way, certainly traffic. But I think it’s the comments like for me, when people are actually taking that extra effort. Because if there’s, it’s amazing to have 10 13,000 likes something like that on a piece of content. But when you start seeing comments, you know, 100 comments or something like that, especially for a startup brand, like Fernish, there’s a connection there that people can relate to, and that I find very reassuring that okay, we’re telling the right story here, people are getting this.

Ben Kaplan  

And so going beyond influencers when you’re trying to tell that story. Let’s talk about some other tactics, channels, and storytelling methods you utilize. One that I’ve known you’ve utilized is the takeover of the New York City Subway, which is at times, I mean, sometimes it’s just an ad, you sort of see ads, and sometimes there’s certain brands that have really, like, embraced it. And it’s almost like it became part of just their persona, right? I’m thinking about brands like Casper for mattresses or other things like that, where you just see them everywhere. And it’s almost like it’s more than just an ad, it’s the takeover part that is the significant part. So talk about how you thought about that, and why you felt that was a good way to invest in a particularly important market for you.

Evelyn Krasnow  

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, so much about furniture and moving is heavy and expensive. So one thing we wanted to do was really convey the sense of lightness and freedom. So we had a zillions of ideas, and then we kind of landed on like, literally probably the most simple idea, which is like, what if the furniture just floated? What if we just showed like, this weightless kind of couch and tables and, and really emphasize this concept of like, free your home. And then that would allow us to really talk about the value props of hassle free, risk free, you can return something at any time. You know, commitment, free, free delivery, you know, all of those props that come with the furniture offering and I think another challenge we have as a DTC [direct to consumer] brand is, you know, at this point, we don’t have a showroom, we don’t have a physical location. So one of the nice things about a more architectural out of home campaign like the New York City subway offers you this kind of permanence. especially at a time when you’re moving from place to place, you know, you, you’re getting this sense of okay, like that feels more like an instant installation, it feels a bit more architectural than, let’s say, a traditional billboard. And we really wanted to kind of literally cement ourselves in the minds of commuters, that we were a good solution. And I think the subway also maps really perfectly to our demo, which tends to be, you know, 25 to 35 year olds, young professionals, people who are at a point in their career where they’re moving around a bit. So that’s really great. And I think also the subway, at least in my experience, taking it like, I’m open to some, I’m open to some distractions, you know, on notice what shoes people have on Arizona’s eating, you know, I’ll look at the signs up there. I mean, Casper did such clever things with copy, and riddles and things like that. So you’re kind of open to looking at Fun campaigns in a way that you might not be as receptive in other parts of your commute or during your day? And

Ben Kaplan  

Was this the objective of this pure brand awareness? Were you at? Were you trying to get conversions from it? Also, were you trying to drive people somewhere? Or what was the key metric? And when was that metric successful?

Evelyn Krasnow  

So yeah, I mean, that’s a really smart question. And we tried a lot of things. So for sure, brand awareness was the top goal. But of course, conversion is another part of it. We actually worked, because we did everything in house, we actually put a bunch of different QR codes on different pieces of creative. So we could see more people scanning the flying sofa or the coffee table. Just to know, like, does this image work because I want to be able to use this again. And I’d ideally like to do the one that’s more effective and we did have a Dr. Code as well, we had a promo, which was helpful. I think, for me, if I see anyone scanning any ad anywhere, you know, outside of, you know, a Superbowl ad, which is absolutely brilliant. But, you know, I don’t know how many times I scan a, you know, a menu QR code, but I’m in marketing, and I don’t know how often I scan something. So to me, anytime we were seeing, like, hundreds of scans on a piece of creative made me really happy. And same with the redemption of the subway code. We used me, we were kind of basic, we used the subway code. We seemed easy enough to find. But I think we saw a massive increase in traffic and a very, very, very nice uptick in sales, which was fantastic, because we were just launching the New York market.

Ben Kaplan  

Another different type of Local Activation that you’ve done, which, which we’ve also leveraged in different ways from our clients, is leveraging a really big event, that’s probably too big and too expensive for you to actually leverage it directly. We’re talking about the Superbowl or maybe the NFL wants to either call it the big game unless you’ve licensed it or something like that. From them. But you know, the big game, the Super Bowl, you did something in LA focused on the LA Rams that was giving discounts based on the score in the year that the Rams won the Super Bowl. Talk about that, and your thinking and sort of this notion of local, but also leveraging bigger events, bigger brands than you are now to to get some additional resonance and engagement.

Evelyn Krasnow  

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think every marketers dream is like, what are you doing for the big game, right? And, you know, as a startup, I can just tell you, like, we’re never going to be able to afford, you know, a Superbowl commercial. So how do you kind of use that moment, to maybe be a part of the conversation as a smart as a smaller brand, and I think we really did have an opportunity Fernishes based in LA. Even though the Rams weren’t technically the home team. They are the home team of LA. So we just thought, hey, what if we had some fun and we did a tiered discount. By the the bigger the margin that the Rams won, the more discount you could have on your order, but you had to place your order in time for the Super Bowl. And I think as we talked about before, you usually are not buying furniture or even thinking about renting anything. Unless you have a real need but you might have one coming up. And I think the idea of getting talked about and having people think about this clever and fun way Need to buy furniture which again, talking about that heaviness from before is usually just like you’re going to a store, you’re negotiating what’s going to fit, it’s 1000s of dollars, like, what is the whole thing, it’s just fun on what it was just this big giant bet on and we had, we had an absolute blast with it. We got a tonne of attention to it on, we didn’t have like massive conversions. But we did have a tremendous amount of brand awareness. And I think it’s nice to be a part of the cultural conversation for a time like that and try to make yourself relevant and play with really the big guys. It’s a challenge. And it’s amazing when it works.

Ben Kaplan  

Well, I’m reminded of a couple different campaigns we did. One of them is for a client, we did the first ever real estate sale on the blockchain. And we’re trying to figure out how do you make that more, you know, this is a few years ago and sort of interesting, engaging kind of a new concept. And so we managed to track down a house that was kind of special, it dealt with the NFL, because it was one of the pack like Green Bay Packers party houses, which is basically across from this row of houses, right. And if you could, like sell one of those, it was gonna be transacted on the blockchain and just bought this whole other, you know, element, just people kind of were like, man, what’s it like to live in one of those houses? That must be crazy. If you’re across there, and then it was tied into this first ever transaction? So I think, you know, and I think those that come from, you know, I think CMOS come from different tracks, the ones that come from some type of PR earned media track will tend to think more like this, right? When you say, I tend to think, well, how do I join the cultural conversation? What can I do that’s relevant? How do I pick you piggyback on someone else? I want to do a CMO who calls it opium, which is actually OPM, other people’s money. How do you leverage other people’s money to get more push from your own, particularly when you’re small? So how do you think about that? Does your team think about that? Like, like sort of this almost PR earned media media muscle? How do we leverage that because we have to, we don’t have the budget of someone much bigger.

Evelyn Krasnow  

I love that. I mean, I love OPM. I mean, I’ve heard it called trend jacking. You know, whatever. I think you’re right, that people who have that that PR background, you kind of grew up with those sort of like old school editorial calendars, like they’re set times in the year that these are the cultural conversations that are going to be, you know, going to be happening, how can I get on and and it’s got to be a part of your DNA as a startup, because you don’t you need other people’s money, both the VCs to fund you. But you know, but to help propel you and I think, and I do think like the example we’re using, there’s just something fun and cool about it. Like it puts you in this category of really coming up with unusual ways to make connections and I think that can feel truly disruptive and help you stand out. Early on in the days when, when I was at simplehuman we were trying to just be taken by simple human makes like really fancy trash cans and dish racks. But in the world.

Ben Kaplan  

I think I have a couple. I think I have a couple, it’s very, it’s very nice.  I have those and then I have them because I have two kids under two then it’s like the fancy diaper. Travel. Yeah, I have that as well. So it’s like a trash can row they’re the size of our living room. So yes.

Evelyn Krasnow  

Well, when we were first, you know, when I was first starting out there, like, you know, people just like literally thought we were trash and I could not get earned media like it was if you were a beautiful table top or serving way or something like that. Or

Ben Kaplan  

like yeah, I’m trying to pitch Architectural Digest, you’re like, let’s, let’s do this if they’re not interested in our trash cans, so it’s what did the

Evelyn Krasnow  

hard pass? So I actually, I had done a little advertising in Food and Wine Magazine. And I knew at that time they had this big sort of event in Aspen where all of these sort of like fancy chefs would come with to sample like beautiful wines from up and coming vineyards and chefs and I was like wait, I had this idea that because that was the audience I wanted to get in front of. We’re sort of these bougie foodies and these like literal tastemakers so I had this idea that we could serve, we could get space in this tent, and just serve like really amazing. Messy. If like we had messy barbeque and messy tacos, and then I had like an automatic soap pump, but it dispensed sanitizer, and then I had these beautiful trash cans. So people were sort of around having these beautiful glasses of wine and then like this, like little tiny like the most perfect order of anyone has ever seen. But you know, the day of doing this, you’re kind of hungry, then you get to me, I’ve got these like huge messy tacos and barbecues. People were lining up, but then they took one bite, right? And it’s a disaster like it’s a complete mess, like, Oh, no problem. Would you like my automatic soap pump? And then here’s a napkin with my brand name on it. And oh, don’t worry, here’s my beautiful trash can. And people just thought they got such a kick out of it. It was super clever. Like we ended up really standing out, kind of because we were trashy and different, you know, in our own way. And I think we know to me like it was. I don’t know if it’s a traditional stunt but to me it’s experiential marketing. I wanted to get in front of those tastemakers, I wanted a memorable experience. And I wanted to kind of let people think about at that time you’re spending, you know, 10s of 1000s of dollars to redo your kitchen. But at that time, people still had a $20 plastic trash bin. And we really were like, up is all about upgrading your trash.

Ben Kaplan  

Anyone, anyone can have a beautifully remodeled design kitchen of The thing is, but you’re only as good as your weakest link. Come on, up your trash can. There you go. I can see that. Yes.

Evelyn Krasnow  

But I think again, it’s about kind of getting you know, it’s the same thing as a subway, it’s like getting people at the right time or, you know, getting people when you can kind of get the attention of people I could never normally afford to reach. And even if I could afford to reach them, they honestly wouldn’t give me the time of day. So I had to find a way to like, you know, to have this meaningful moment and it you know, it really worked beautifully. I think we had a tonne a tonne tonne of engagement, I probably it’s probably also the campaign and I think I gained a lot of weight. I ate a lot, but it was definitely worth gaining the followers and the pounds both worth everything.

Ben Kaplan  

Well, and some of it is the storytelling. I mean, you do Fernish in the sense of all of the context, the lead up that goes into this kind of this crossroads moment where your brand can make a difference in a simple human. And I guess to some extent when you were at Belkin as well and for people I think a lot of people know Belkin but isn’t making everything from cables and surge protectors and little gadgets to go with your iPhone. It’s about finding the beauty or the hidden beauty in something that maybe in a category isn’t you know, always messaged right? certain categories, fashion, luxury, will do beauty, but if you can, as a marketer, you know, anyone can do due to beauty for like an expensive handbag or something like that, or a piece of art. How do you do for a trashcan? How do you do it for a surge protector that just quite isn’t quite the eyesore sounds like some of your career has been sort of finding those other qualities of the brand or products and being able to bring them out.

Evelyn Krasnow  

I mean, I know, I see myself a lot as an underdog. So I think I really do champion these sort of, like really beautiful products that may be at first glance or unloved or what is great about them is just simply that they work really well. And maybe they’re unobtrusive, something just fits. I mean, there’s so many things that we encounter every day that just work and, and they make our lives easier. And we don’t always appreciate the design that goes into it, the thoughtfulness that goes into it, the engineering that goes into it, the logistics, the operation, the customer, service teams, all of those things that are helping to bring that product experience to life. For us. I think there’s something really deeply rewarding as a marketer about being able to tell those stories meaningfully. And sometimes to something as simple as a really elegant diagram on a package. You know, sometimes it’s how you flesh out like an exploded view of a product on a website or through some other sort of digital experience or video. But I think being able to tell those stories, I do think you sort of look at objects in a new way. And I think there’s something really, there’s something really fun and there’s something really meaningful about that. Like I like it when people get credit for good work.

Ben Kaplan  

Well and there’s in our vernacular At top our agency, we would call like, at its essence sort of marketing finding, what’s the process three S’s? Simple, surprising and significant? A lot of marketing is how do you simplify things down to the essence. And it has to be simple. Because people got to take it with them, right? And they’re not focused on you. If you’re at Super Ed, simple him, and you’re and you’re marketing trash cans, they’re not thinking about trash cans all day, right? They’re not thinking about these sort of things all the time, it’s got to be simple. It’s got to be surprising. So just like you sort of, you know, kind of the influencer experiential sort of stunt of, you know, here’s this lovely trashcan, we’re giving you a funny use case, to use it right away that you, you’ve manufactured for them, we’ve got to be surprising. But then in the end, if you’re simple, if you’re surprising, you’ve also got to say something significant for your brand. Because it’s simple, surprising, not enough that even just made some buzz, people were like, Haha, and they move on. So you’ve got to do all of that. And if I would say, like, I don’t know, in my opinion, I don’t know if you agree or not like what is table stakes in this. It’s almost like simplicity. If you can’t get it simple enough, no matter how good you do on the rest, it almost can’t resonate, because it just can’t transfer fast enough.lives are too big, busy, too much noise. I don’t know if you agree or disagree.

Evelyn Krasnow  

I agree. 100%. And I love your concept of the three S’s and I love that last one to have the significance piece. I think we talk a lot about authenticity. And that’s one thing, but I think it’s also like, doesn’t matter. Like, what does this mean? And I think that a significant part of it is something that we don’t really talk about enough. And I think when you can flesh that out, you really do have this trifecta where you can forge a real connection and I think a real genuine appreciation and a way that people are willing, you know, they’re willing to invest more in it.

Ben Kaplan  

What it sounds like you’re doing in the influencer campaign is dialing up that significance, right? By telling the story telling the background, not just have it be a transactional influencer, that’s like, look at me, I’m on a couch, now I’m gone. You’re able to, to actually drive up the significance. And now your product. And in even the notion of at Fernish the idea of, you know, kind of the commitment stress free, don’t lift a finger, that significance what you might miss in the product. I don’t know if I was shopping and be like, Okay, I need some temporary furniture, because I’m moving, that I would sort of value all of that unless someone showed me that like, oh, wow, like, that’d be great. Think of all the stuff I could do with my family with what with meeting my new town, my new neighbors if I didn’t have to worry about this? Oh, that’s great. So it sounds like the significance part. You’re, you’re, you’re you’re driving that through storytelling, and particularly those that context you’re creating.

Evelyn Krasnow  

Absolutely. And I think as you’re talking I want to like keep adding more S’s like, I think the storytelling piece, and I think also the sustainability piece, right, which is a big part of the mission at Fernish, and I think is also a big part of how people are thinking today is like, what is the impact? And how is this a smarter choice? How is this a smarter choice for how I’m living for the earth? And I think, you know, that that last piece that that kind of, I guess in the old PR world, what you would call messaging pull through, right, that sort of like feeling that like, oh, okay, like I can feel good about this, I made it, I made a better decision. I feel smarter, you know, for having done it this way. Because I’m not throwing something out. I’m not having to like Hawk something on, you know, Craigslist or whatever to get rid of it. Like, I’m, I’m, I’m being you know, I’m being more mindful. Thank you. Yeah, I

Ben Kaplan  

think to certain audiences too. And particularly, like, you know, the sustainability piece often comes out and we talked about a lot of brands that are marketing to like, millennials or like a little bit of a younger group. And, and it’s, it’s usually not the primary, necessarily decision driver, like like, Okay, I’m gonna go get some some some of some some furniture that’s going to tide me over my big move, who’s sustainable first as our first thing but you’re in this whole part and I’m just gonna kind of like half jokingly pull your story through you’re like, you know, my my girlfriend or boyfriend, they’re an idiot. They’re commitment phobic, they wouldn’t do a commitment and so now I’m gonna go to the place that just lifts the commitment off me Oh, wow. First and oh, I can also feel good about now making a commitment to the planet while I’m doing this so there’s sort of that process of I have the use case Oh, I’m driving value and oh, you know, here’s a cherry on top that I can feel good about. Like obviously Fernish is the choice for me.

Evelyn Krasnow  

I love that. And I think that halogen consumption piece is sort of like, again, to use your word like the kind of surprise when after, like, oh, and I feel better about it. You know, it’s a great feeling to have, I think sustainability is the first piece. Actually, that was one of probably my, you know, when I joined Belkin, I came on to launch, it was actually an energy efficient power business, they were power products that had intelligence switches and things like that, that would turn off to save power, and they cost a bit more. And it was an absolute failure. Like, I thought, Oh, my God, of course, like everyone wants to save energy, everyone’s going to spend more on this, but as a primary value prop. At that time, anyway, it was hard to do convincingly. But the storytelling behind it was very compelling. And then through that experience, and through the success, I guess, of that failure, I was able to kind of grow my role at Belkin, and, and, you know, lead global marketing for for all of the other, you know, cables and switches, and you, surge protectors, and all all of those other pieces, but it was, I think, is a primary message. There are some brands that have it at their core, and I think Fernishit is at the core of our business model. But I don’t know if it is necessarily at the core of all of our consumers’ purchase decisions from what we have found in the data. It’s exactly as you said, the flexibility, the convenience, the money saving piece, and then this added benefit of and it’s good for the earth, that is the pull through.

Ben Kaplan  

Sure. And how do you win, we’ve talked about, you know, this idea of, of the storytelling context that sort of, lets you experience and understand the value. We’ve talked about, you know, getting some, you know, some buzz, some awareness, using our earned media muscles to be relevant, we’ve done all of that. And maybe as a final topic we could talk about is another trigger for engagement that we can use is being really relevant locally, geographically, hyper locally. And I know you’ve used that at Fernish and certainly have campaigns that are like the New York subway that are focused on an area, how do you think about that overall, as another driver of engagement of just being really relevant to someone where they are?

Evelyn Krasnow  

Yeah, I mean, that. I mean, it’s a really, you know, it’s a really interesting question. And I think for people who have managed global brands, like, you know, you know, at Belkin, you know, seasons are different in Australia than they are in New York, you know, so that’s something about what you’re showing in the backdrops. I had things simple human, where the size of an average trash can in Texas is very different than the size of an average trash can in Japan and

Ben Kaplan  

everything bigger in Texas. Is that true?

Evelyn Krasnow  

I would say so. I would say so.

Ben Kaplan  

Okay, so you’re saying it’s locally different in these areas, how they experience and preferences.

Evelyn Krasnow  

And then, you know, bird, I think was a great example, too, because we were really, you know, that was probably my first experience of really properly, hyper, hyper local as like, you know, these scooters, that people were picking up and riding had very different regulations, city by city, even different, you know, city by city in different countries. So that was a great experience to figure out what you can do to engage with community stakeholders, to make sure that people really knew how to park things appropriately? What were the rules of the road and doing what you could to get good compliance and good behavior and hopefully, also greater utilization so that you’re really putting these scooters in a place where people can use them are having having fun and doing the job of getting from from point A to point B in a way that is, you know, sustainable and enjoyable, and of course safe and then I think with Fernish you know, we’re not yet a national brand either. So feeling like we are, you know, the service of choice for people in New York or people in Austin. Feeling like you can be locally recommended but also I think that also speaks to having local teams who, you know, know the brand and know the products like it’s a little bit different. And this is something that is actually part of the story that I feel like I’m still working on figuring out how to tell when someone is moving your stuff, they obviously care about it. But it’s your stuff with Fernish all of our warehouse and delivery people, the refurbishers, like they’re Fernish products and they’re going to at some point, unless you’re buying it, you’re, they’re coming back to us. So they really know how to assemble these, they really are also pretty careful about how they’re moving them, because they know they’re going to have to come back, and someone’s going to need to sand out that thing. So I think there’s also that kind of local knowledge, but that sort of product expertise. And then also, I think, from a from a market experience, ideally, you know, knowing even just how many deliveries you can, you know, schedule in a day, and what time windows to provide so that you can arrive in a time window that makes sense and is as likely for people and then I’m also a very, very big believer, and like local business partnerships, the same thing we’re talking about with local influencers, but how do you, you know, is it okay? I mean, even something which seems kind of low phi, but like, we made these little coasters that we put in local coffee shops with QR codes that people can scan, just to kind of say, hey, we support you, we know you’re getting coffee here. I don’t know, it just, it feels nice, it feels like you’re a part of the fabric of the neighborhood. And, and I think when you can do that in a way that resonates with people. They like local people, I like local.

Ben Kaplan  

When and I think the other thing that you do is if you layer enough of these triggers together, so you’re culturally relevant for what’s going on timing wise, you’ve got, you know, kind of a storytelling trigger or context or a use case. So you’re resonating that way, you have something surprising, that’s different, that just gives people a laugh or a chuckle. Plus, you layer local on top of that, then, you know, you don’t even any one doesn’t have to, you know, be the driver of everything. But you put that all together, you can get lifted through all of that, and then you can turn a campaign that was okay, into a campaign. That’s one incredibly successful market, but it is potentially scalable. And that being the holy grail for anyone who’s going to grow a market is gonna grow locally is like localized, but massive scale. Ideally, you figure out a recipe for that. And then and then you can, you can do that. So, Evelyn Kraus, now CMO Fernish, what I love is, you’re a creative, you’re very creative. You’re a person who loves storytelling, which is fantastic. You’re a person who is finding, I guess, the beauty and marketing even and things aren’t sure if they thought it was beautiful. So as a final point, what is for someone else that would love your career path or career track? What is your recommendation? What kinds of experiences, what kinds of opportunities, what should they do for their next two to five years?

Evelyn Krasnow  

For that’s a big one. I mean, I feel like you probably have great, great advice there, too. I’m curious what your advice is. I mean, I, I think, you know, I mean, I think we are all marketed to you know, throughout the day, and I think you might have experience that may feel like it’s not traditional. And I think there’s always a way to use it, I think you can always draw on it and find a way to make it relevant. And I think I’ve also found just in my own career, you know, it’s hard, but especially at a startup, you know, you have to remember that progress isn’t linear. When you’re starting out, or depending where you are in your career, it’s like, Hey, I’m on this path, it’s going great. Oops, you know, and the same thing can happen with a campaign, you know, things are sort of going it feels like oh, my gosh, we’ve unlocked the key to the universe, and then all of a sudden, no one’s clicking on your ad anymore, or, you know, something goes awry, or your budget changes, or there’s some issue with the product, and you have to kind of shift gear. So sometimes progress can be a step back, or it can be a pause. But I think it’s still progress. And I think remembering that and drawing on that experience, at least for me, you know, I found it to be really helpful at times where, you know, I might otherwise think, how is this relevant or how is this going to help me and I and I, and I think the more we remember that and the more we can figure out how to take something away from from every experience, the more the more successful we can be. And I think it also just helps you be more positive in life in general.

Ben Kaplan  

And as a marketer, if I was going to paraphrase, be an experience collector, collect these different kinds of experiences, and then you can mash them up and mold them and filter them and distill them in unexpected ways. So Evelyn Krasnow, thank you so much for joining us on TOP CMO.

Evelyn Krasnow  

I thank you so much for having me. This was super fun.